Professor Muhammad Yunus

ROFESSOR Muhammad Yunus has always been a man of ideas. But the beauty of his ideas is that they are eminently do-able. He is not an idle dreamer, but a practical man with lots of dream.

So at the end of the year, and the century, The Daily Star went to the renowned professor for ideas as to what we should do in the immediate future. Following is the text of the exhaustive conversation Professor Yunus had with our editor, Mahfuz Anam:

The Daily Star (DS): Please share with us some of your fundamental thoughts.

Professor Muhammad Yunus (MY): My basic position is, poverty can be overcome. It is not something that has come to stay and is part of human civilisation, as some people would like to say. We do not have to accept poverty as it is. All we have to do is believe in the creation of a world which is free from poverty. So once you accept that proposition, the rest of the policies and institutions will fall into place.

It is not a question of resources. The world has enough resources to eliminate poverty.

It is also not a question of technology either, because we know how to eliminate poverty. Many countries have done it.

The basic point that needs to be understood is that poverty is not created by the poor people. Poverty is created by the institutions, by the policies implemented in the countries. So we have to check through the list of institutions and policies that we have been pursuing and find out where we have implanted the seeds of creating poverty, so we can take out those seeds and change institutions so that they do not create poverty any more.

The next point is, each human being has the capacity to take care of himself and herself. It's not something external, it's inside the person. So all we need to do is nourish the person, to bring out that capacity to lead a life with human dignity. All we need to do is let the person bring out that capacity, so that h/she can strive to improve his/her lot. That's another weapon in achieving elimination of poverty - allowing human dignity to flourish.

In the past, we have created barriers on the way, which prevented people from taking out those capacities. So the first responsibility is to remove those barriers. That is 75 per cent of the job, removal of the barriers. And then, you create an enabling environment so that they find it more convenient to use their capacity to eliminate poverty.

DS: How do you see information technology helping eradication of poverty?

MY: The new millennium that is coming offers unprecedented opportunities for both removal of barriers and creation of an enabling environment.

There are two things I will emphasise. It is very exciting. One is information technology and the other biotechnology. Both can be addressed very readily to create environments that are favourable for people to come out of poverty. Also, this gives us an agenda, a clear target, a context within which we can remove the old barriers that we have established in the past.

The barriers come in terms of marginalisation of the poor. You can name any number of things to which they don't have access. One that we have been working on is, absence of access to commercial credit. This has made them economically totally dysfunctional. They become slaves for others because financial institutions will not help them. So this is one area you can remove the barrier from.

Access to information, access to knowledge, access to participation - barriers to these can all be removed by access established by information technology. Information technology today is more geared to serve big business, the rich. This is where the market will push them because that is where the money is. Technology is something like water. It takes the shape of the container. However it is not something that belongs to a particular category of people. No, it can be servicing anybody who is willing to take advantage of it. So I am saying that if we pay attention to information technology in a way that it serves the interest of the poor, to get them out of poverty; it can be a very powerful instrument in eliminating poverty. So today whatever is available in information technology is only a very small fragment of its potential in serving the interest of the poor people. We can design it in such a way that it can work in a very powerful way. In that context, I have been arguing, or rather proposing for the creation of an International Centre for Information Technology to end poverty. My basic point here is, information technology can have a dramatic impact on the whole situation of getting people out of poverty. It will become very fast and very radical if we can use it.

And then, biotechnology. Biotechnology can bring tremendous change in agriculture, in things that we produce, in terms of tailor-made seeds with high productivity, disease-resistant, high nutrition so you will eat small quantities, but will get more nutrition out of it. Then there is storability of foodstuff, because we waste a lot of foodstuff. There is a lot of things that you wish you could do. Now you can because of biotechnology. So if you can bring these two together, information technology and biotechnology, it will open up tremendous opportunity.

DS: What does Bangladesh have to do with all of this?

MY: We were talking about a global situation. Bangladesh is way down the list of the nations of the world. If you talk about information technology, Bangladesh is a very compact country. It is a small territory with a huge population. So with a little bit of investment, you can reach all the people with information technology quite easily.

We have very intelligent and trainable people, young people. Half the population of Bangladesh is under 20. So if you offer them the opportunity, very quickly they adapt to these things. And they are very eager to change their lives. If you can reach out to them, it spreads out quickly. So the young people are a great resource. They are half the population and they are increasing.

Luckily Bangladesh, over the years, has created an excellent network of micro-credit institutions. Half the poor families in Bangladesh have access to micro-credit. This is an unusual situation in the whole world. So that network of financing which provides the basis for poor people to come out of poverty with financial resources is already there. We can build up on that.

DS: Will micro-credit be enough to move us forward?

MY: Today we have only credit facilities. Tomorrow you build many other facilities on them, like insurance facilities, securities facilities or mutual funds; or participation in the stock market by the poor. Poor people owning big enterprises, little pieces of it. It is possible so that they can earn not only by their own immediate labour and hard work that they put in, but also by investing in profit-making enterprises in the country and even outside the country. So that their money that they earn, like any rich person does, can also bring them returns from any other sources. Their savings can work in many different ways. So you can build up on a totally different kind of financial structure out of the present financial system that has already grown.

DS: How does awareness help the growth of rural economy?

MY: People have excellent income generating skills. In many countries you will not find that. So this is another advantage for Bangladesh. Even the poor woman that we talk about, she has a basic income-generating skill. And if you provide the support, she can create employment for herself. So the unemployment issue that we talk about because the economy cannot provide employment, it's not relevant here, or it is not as relevant as it is in other countries. People are used to creating their own jobs. All you need to do is provide the support so that they can earn more from their self-employment than they would do otherwise if left to themselves.

The process of generation of awareness among the poor women has already started. We have a long 20 years' history of awareness generation which has tremendous impact in reducing the population growth. And this is all because of the awareness generated among the women in Bangladesh. That awareness is, again, a resource. It can be sharpened with information technology. You can bring many other things, once people are willing to listen and to learn. Information technology can bring that knowledge, information, health services and so on and so forth. So here we have a very lively group of people who are ready to change their own lives. We don't have to preach to them. They are ready. Our leadership is lagging behind. We are not providing those things as fast as they are ready to adopt, as fast as they are ready to make use of them.

Bringing women to the mainstream is the most reliable way to bring families out of poverty. So that basic condition has been fulfilled today. You are in touch with those women through the micro-credit network and many other programmes. I am not saying that micro-credit alone is doing all the work. There are many programmes in the country which are working towards reaching out to the poor women. So they are on the verge of moving towards the mainstream. Now if we can strengthen them, bringing women into the mainstream of the economy, it is the best way to get the family out of poverty. So the first step is already done. We have to only take the following steps.

DS: How do you visualise quick elimination of poverty?

MY: A centralised government is never in a position to solve problems. The more you centralise all the decision-making in one group, you make a mess of it. We have seen examples of it around the world, in our own country. They not only cannot solve problems, they cannot provide services in an efficient way for the whole nation or create an enabling environment in the nation for the poor. So we need to develop a well-structured local government network starting from the village level. That is where I have been arguing for many years for the creation of gram sarker. Once it came and was abolished again. Now it's coming in the form of gram parishad, but still all paper works. After all these years since independence, we have not been able to put this in place. It is not something new we are taking about now. It has been talked about since day one, the creation of village government or gram parishad or whatever. Excellent structures are designed, but it never gets implemented. We are stuck in the implementation of workable local government networks like gram parishad, upazila parishad, zila parishad and all that. This is very important for poverty alleviation. You need strong local government at the lowest level to remove barriers to poverty alleviation. In that way, poor people can bring their political will into the government. Otherwise, in a centralised government, their voice is drowned. No matter numerically how big they are, political strength-wise they are still feeble. The small minority of a very powerful people has the strongest voice in governments. And personal proximity always works in a situation like that. So I think, network of local government is very important for poverty alleviation.

DS: Can you name some specific things that we should do?

MY: We must have four things for moving forward and eliminating poverty fast. First, I think, is a guarantee of citizen's rights and strict adherence to the rule of law, which is missing. I must know where I belong, what is my right, what I can do. I cannot take decisions if everything is uncertain around me. I shrink back to non-existence. I am not an enterprising person because I don't know what the rules are, what the road blocks are, whether or not all my hard work will disappear for no fault of mine. So we must have citizen's rights established and the rule of law strictly adhered to. This is a precondition if you want to develop anything.

The days of slow moving actions are gone. The world is moving fast. the new millennium is the millennium of speed. As the years go by in the new millennium, speed will become faster and faster and faster. The societies, which are slow, will not be able to cope with those things. So we have to move ahead in that speed. Luckily, we are gathering speed, but not fast enough because of the problems that we are having around us in establishing citizen's rights, in establishing rule of law. So this is a crucial issue.

Information technology and biotechnology give us the opportunity to move as fast as we want. It's a question of our preparedness. We must be prepared with all of those rules and procedures established, norms established. Nobody can touch me if I am within the norms. Nobody can stop me if I am within my rights. I do not face anything unexpected. Then I move on. That is missing terribly in our society right now.

DS: Can you elaborate this? It sounds so fundamental.

MY: For example, you want to run a business. You don't know how much it will cost because of the bribe you will have to give in every direction; when thugs will come and destroy everything that you have got; when the extortionists will come to get you to pay something.

DS: Basically we are talking about removing the criminal elements in society.

MY: Absolutely. Not only criminals in society. There are criminals inside the government too. We have terrorism, extortionism, everything that the newspapers are writing these days. The criminals take away those fundamental citizen's rights you want to establish. A citizen must feel that he is protected. That has to be clearly enunciated so that he can go on. It's not only for the people within the country. But if you are moving fast, you cannot move alone. You need co-operation. Your international partners will come in to work with you. International partners will never come if they see this as an uncertain country. You cannot calculate, you cannot project. Laws don't apply to everybody. People get freed from murder charges. So rule of law is a fundamental thing that we have to establish.

The next highest priority area is information technology. Everybody talks about it, I am not the only one, but nothing gets done. It is something so central to the whole issue. How much we are in the information technology revolution so that we can move fast. People are ready to make big investments, inside the country, outside the country or jointly. People are willing to put their money on information technology development. All that is needed is government assistance. Basic decisions have to be made. We don't even know who is in charge of information technology. If it is so central to this country, then there should be a clear decision-making point. I am arguing that we could double our per capita income by the year 2010. We can reduce poverty or the number of poor people by half, only if we focus on information technology.

DS: Can IT alone take us to our destination?

MY: Information technology is not the only thing in the world. There are handicrafts, agriculture and a lot of other things. But if we pay the highest attention to information technology, we can achieve these two things. Reduce the number of poor people by half by the year 2010. We can double our per capita income by 2010. It is a tremendous thing to happen and it must happen. It is a doable proposition, a realistic goal provided you pay attention.

Who is handling IT? Which Ministry? Which person? Does he know anything about it? Is he spending sleepless nights over it? Is he coming up with plans, scrapping previous ones, making new ones everyday and energising the whole country? We don't see anyone. At least have a special assistant for information technology attached to the Prime Minister. Then he or she goes around and organises what needs to be done and brings it to the government and to the Prime Minister or the cabinet, these are the steps needed to be done. That preparation is lacking.

We are all talking about entering the new millennium. How? Who is taking us there? Who is in the driver's seat? People are waiting for that signal that we are on the path of achieving something. These must begin now. If you can't do the big thing, start with small things, there are a lot of small things to be done. But there are a lot of big things to be done too and can be done. There are a lot of people in Bangladesh, expatriates, who are committed to information technology. Let's take advantage of it. Let's see what is going on in Singapore, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and India. At least be at par with them, if not more. We can be more, because if our government says that this country is going to be the Cyber country. All the others will follow. No other country has said that. Private sector will be happy to make Bangladesh better than Singapore in telecommunication. The private sector is willing to do that and private sector in Bangladesh is not alone.

The third point I want to make is globalisation. Elimination of poverty is linked with globalisation. People may ask, is it good for the poor or bad for the poor? Globalisation is coming like a tidal wave. It is coming. If it you don't prepare, you will drown. You will be submerged under the tidal wave. Everybody else will take advantage. We have to prepare ourselves. If we prepare ourselves, we can work this tidal wave to our advantage and we will be riding the waves. So the question is whether we shall get drowned under the tidal wave or will we be riding the waves of the tidal wave. The choice is clear. You cannot allow yourself to be drowned.

You cannot argue away globalisation. It is not some conspiracy somewhere. It's again part of speed, because the world is becoming one. National borders and so on will have less and less importance. These will become historical monuments. People's interests will override everything else. Businesses and trade will bring the nations closer to each other. They will read about their historical fights in history. More of a common interest will be driving them to shake hands and move on forward.

DS: So what does it entail, to prepare for globalisation?

MY: First, you cannot face globalisation without having regionalisation. This is your first step. If you are alone, if you are entering a globalised economy, you have very little chance. That is why everywhere you see all nations are trying to get together. Here we are fighting away from that process. So these are absolutely negative regressive steps. The step forward would be to shake hands and open up our borders.

We can open up our borders like ASEAN countries. They have come a long way. In Latin America, four countries are getting together, Brazil, Paraguay, Chile and some other. In Europe, they are already together. So, they have their regional groupings. Africa is just getting ready with their common market, free trade within those countries. We have a structure, SAARC. But somehow SAARC, because of our involvement with emotional things, we couldn't make it function. SAARC had decided to create a common market, but it's not getting off, we can start. We don't have to wait. We can start with the countries like Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Bhutan as a first step, as a sub-regional grouping which will pave the way for other countries in SAARC to join. We can even invite neighbouring Myanmar and Thailand to join. The more countries you have, the better off you are.

If a single nation Bangladesh, a single nation Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bhutan or Sri Lanka tries to take a piece of the world market, each one of us will be competing with each other and cutting off each other's edge. But if we can pull our resources, we as a bloc have a better deal in the world market. It is a necessity because we will be specialising in each other's things, what ever advantage each one has, instead of trying to do everything ourselves. So this regionalisation is very important, not 20 to 25 countries together. You can start with one or two-step by step. The biggest trading partner we have is India right now. So why don't we talk with India? Everybody says, we will be swamped with Indian goods, but we are already swamped with Indian goods. If you open up, at least you will have a chance to sell your goods in the Indian market. Here, we must bargain with India for our interest.

Transition is always painful. You can always say, no we will not allow anybody to enter. And then what happens to globalisation? You have to open it up to the rest of the world today or tomorrow. So why don't we open gradually, go through this pain. Transition is painful, but at the end of the pain, the real pleasure comes.

DS: What are the product areas where we might have an advantage against India?

MY: Textile is one. They will find it not worthwhile to produce this, not only because we are efficient, but because we will be cheaper. Their wages are getting higher and so on. They will come and put their industries here like any other bigger nation. Japan relocated its industries in Malaysia, for example. It is not because they have a great love for Malaysia. Simply because it makes a lot of economic sense. Many countries will do that as soon as you open up. If you are smart in Bangladesh, many international companies will come and set up their industries here to sell products in the other countries, India to begin with.

DS: So the trick really is to prepare ourselves for relocation?

MY: This is what I am arguing for all the time, that you provide them the security, a good power system, a good legal system and peaceful existence, then we can move on. Peace and rule of law is very important for any business. What happened in Singapore? Why did everyone come to Singapore? Because you knew that if you spit on the street, somebody would notice it and catch you. You cannot get away. You can be the son or daughter of somebody, but you will not be spared. So they knew if there was a rule, a law, it will be obeyed. Nobody can get away with it. If we can establish a similar situation, everybody will come. Everybody will know, what is in the book is exactly what will happen. Today you read in the book one thing, but you don't know if that will happen in reality.

DS: Basically, the investment need that we have, the resource that we have, is to be met by positioning ourselves for relocation?

MY: Absolutely. It will be a place where all the international organisations can come easily, establish their plants, do their business easily. On top of it, if you have IT facilities, they will love to come here. It doesn't matter to them where this is located physically, as long as IT brings them close to each other. So that is again where IT comes in. Physical distances don't matter. They see they know exactly what is happening within Bangladesh because IT brings them close.

DS: So the resource crunch is no barrier?

MY: No barrier at all.

DS: Relocation is the key?

MY: Not simply relocation. It could also be new investment. Economic configurations have changed. Now whether I should locate my detergent plant in Bangalore or Hyderabad, in Delhi or Dhaka, Chittagong, I have to choose among those and I will see which one is better for me because it is the same market. I will produce my cereal plant or detergent plant or cosmetic plant or textile plant, or a new computer chip-making plant, because the whole territory is one piece. There is no barrier. I can take it from one end of the territory to another end of the territory. Nobody will stop me. I would like to locate my plant in a way, my workers can join, my officials I send will say, okay, I will like to go and visit Cox's Bazar. I will like it there. There is a beautiful beach and there is plant and it's safe. Nobody bothers me. So this is what we have to do. Then everything will start happening.

You have to open up for international investments. That is investment in real sense, not investment in the stock market. Today they have invested, tomorrow they withdraw and you are out. Nothing happens. We are talking about real investment, physical investment in your own grounds. This is possible provided we create those conditions.

So emphasising on the regionalisation issue is very important. Globalisation is on the way. It is unstoppable. We can be drowned under the tidal wave of globalisation, or we can ride the waves for a better future. It will all depend on how we prepare ourselves. Regionalisation will prepare us for globalisation. This will also give us a strategic advantage in the global market since we are all competitors with each other in the region. We will be forced to undercut each other, etc.

The fourth element is education. Education, education and education. If you want to have an edge, if you want to bring industries, locate industries, bring in investment, if you want to be on top of IT, education is the key. Top class education. This is another area we have totally failed. Our education is going down the drain and each day it is getting worse. The quality of our education is going downhill. If we really want to achieve that speed, we have to have our quality education ensured, not just for a few centres of excellence, but good quality education all the way from bottom to the top. If we are not paying attention to our education, no way we can move on, no matter what we say. We can do only bits and pieces with the few people who know how to do that and to that extend we will be limited. We have to open up and again, IT might help. Ultimately it will help.

So the most important aspect of education is preparing our people, not with outdated education, but knowledge at par so that we know where we are going. Those facilities are already there, but have to be geared up so that we can take it up from 10 to 100 quality-wise.

DS: A lot of money would be needed.

MY: Money is not a problem.

DS: So why doesn't it happen?

MY: Why doesn't it happen? Because centralised decision-making, centralised bureaucracy and rotten confrontational politics will not let us make it happen. We are all sucked into that confrontational politics. Our education system is a victim of that. You go there, you see the same confrontational politics with terrorism and all.

Confrontational politics is killing us. All said and done, this is where everything goes down. We are on a suicide path. Citizens have become paralysed by our politics. Politics is supposed to be an energising force. It is not supposed to paralyse us, demoralise us. That is what our politics has done, paralysed us, demoralised us. We are totally on the wrong track.

Terrorism is at an all time high. Our politics is eating away the core of our national institutions, education and everything, and the core values of life. Corruption has become endemic. You can't do anything unless you pay. If you pay, you get away with anything, no matter what. You talk to any businessman, he will tell you what it is. He does illegal things everyday, every moment. That is the norm. If he doesn't do illegal things, he cannot do business. If you catch him for illegal things, he says, that is the way everybody does it. He knows how to get away. He pays and gets away.

The rule of law is thinning away. Citizen's rights are becoming non-existent. Each citizen is busy trying to find his or her own strategy for protecting himself or herself. The state itself is eroding. What is a state after all, if it doesn't protect me, if I don't feel protected? I don't feel protected. You don't feel protected. Your children don't feel protected. When they go to school, you don't know whether they are coming back. What kind of a state do we have? Is the state disappearing. Do we only have some images of it around us? Does it really not exist? How do we measure the state? What is the yardstick that there is a state? If you go to the police, he turns his back. He doesn't listen to you unless he gets a telephone call. You get the murderer in the police station. He gets a telephone call, the murderer walks out. What kind of state is this? What is the state? This is something that we have to address?

This is no way to enter a new millennium. This where we have to work. We, as a generation of the outgoing century, have succeeded brilliantly in creating a state for our nation, but failed miserably in building the nation. Let us step back and let the new generation of the emerging century take over this responsibility. Our young should not suffer for our mistakes.

I am very confident that a sane leadership will emerge from the young generation. A nation of 128 million cannot just drift into permanent insignificance.

We always come back to square one, politics. Unless we clear that thing, nothing else can happen. There will be a little investment here, a little investment there, but nobody will come in a real big way because they are unsure. They don't know who is doing what to you the next day.

DS: So how do we change politics?

MY: That's a 64 million-dollar question! We are stuck. They will not talk. No new things are happening. It's just a repetition of the old things over and over again. The more you ask them, about current things, the more they go 30 years back and start repeating everything again. They do not see one day ahead.

The best thing for politics would be, just clear the deck, let's forget. Let's talk about tomorrow from now on. You can come up with all kinds of things. There are a lot of suggestions. You can have four-year terms, no by-elections, all elections under caretaker government, those are the current things. Know for sure this is happening, or even have a coalition government in a way that half the term you run, half the term I run kind of situation. All these things happen, that people divide up the term between them. Let's do it. We'll co-operate with you, you co-operate with us. Let's move on because we have to move on.

Now I consider you as enemy of the state and you consider me as enemy of the state. We build up everything as if we are the enemies of the state. This cannot be so.

DS: Thank you very much for your time.